Welcome to the thirteenth episode of Season Three of Wisdom for Wellbeing Podcast. On this episode I interview Michelle Farris, LMFT.

As Michelle highlights, “Relationships don’t have to be so painful.”

Want to keep in touch? Head to @drkaitlin on Instagram or @wisdomforwellbeingpod on Facebook to connect.

What is covered in this episode:

>> Codependency is a relationship pattern where you’re sacrificing yourself for the sake of someone else

>>To tell if a relationship is codependent, reflect on whether a relationship is lopsided. Are you doing most of the giving? Are boundaries difficult?

>>Codependency is a lot more common than we realise, and it can come from trauma and growing up in a dysfunctional household.

>>Relationship recovery starts with self-care. You have to have a foundation of being able to take care of yourself, know what you need and want, manage your emotions because when you have that set of skills. With that foundation, it will be easier to move into core relationship skills like setting boundaries, communicating effectively, handling conflict, being able to deal with hurt and triggers and resentments. Once the healing begins, it’ll be easier to be able to trust not only yourself and your own perceptions but you’re also going to be able to change who you get into relationship with because unacceptable behavior will no longer be acceptable.

>>Growing and changing in oneself also means change in the rest of the world with the social connections and relationships shifting in such a way that it’s not the same people that you draw closer.

Links Discussed

• counselingrecovery.com
• Find The Codependency Workbook and other online classes
• Counseling Recovery Facebook Page
• @counseling_recovery on Instagram
• Counseling Recovery on Pinterest
• Michelle Farris on Youtube

You’ll find a copy of the Episode Transcript below.

Transcript

Michelle Farris: Could have been people who are the straight-A students, the president of the club, they look perfect on the outside. That’s because that’s the way they’re learning how to matter. But the problem is, is they can’t make a mistake. They can’t be imperfect. So it’s really, really hard. So the goal of codependency recovery is balance.

Intro: You’re listening to the Wisdom for Wellbeing podcast, the show that blends science and heart to bring you evidence-based tips and tricks for cultivating a healthy, wealthy, and meaningful life. Now, here’s your host, therapist, Yogi and fellow full life balancer, Dr. Kaitlin Harkess.

Kaitlin Harkess: Hi there. Welcome back to Wisdom for Wellbeing. Today, we are talking all things codependency. Now, chances are that you have heard that word recently. It’s something that we are talking about more and more and today, we are specifically going to be talking about how you can tell if your relationship is codependent and how codependency actually develops. Michelle Ferris is joining us. Michelle is a licensed psychotherapist and anger management specialist. With over 30 years of experience supporting people through recovery issues, she is very well versed in codependence and supporting people to recover. So that’s actually one of the really, really important things about this conversation as we talk through what codependency is and then how you can move forward if this is something you’ve experienced. Michelle has actually written three ebooks and created several online courses, to support individuals, with private learning. Her articles have been featured in several online publications, including Psych Central, Bustle, Your Tango, The Good Men Project, and The Daily Positive. In a private practice, Michelle has found her very sweet spot in teaching relationship skills that are easy to implement quickly. Her guilty, pleasure is venti latte from Starbucks, and I hope that you enjoy this conversation. Let’s dive right in now.

Kaitlin Harkess: Michelle, welcome to the Wisdom for Wellbeing Podcast. I am delighted to be joined by you today to have this conversation around codependency which is a word and experience that we hear a lot of and we maybe are a bit curious about unpacking what that means and I know that’s going to be our priority today. So thank you for creating the space.

Michelle Farris: Oh thank you. Kaitlin, you provide such a great wealth of information on your podcast.

Kaitlin Harkess: Oh well that is kind of you to say and I guess in terms of introducing listeners to yourself, would you mind just sharing a bit about who you are and the work that you’re doing?

Michelle Farris: Sure. So I am a licensed marriage and family therapist and I’ve been in, I started my own recovery around 21 because I realized I did not have the tools for life and like many people who seek personal growth, you know, we don’t grow up with those kind of tools. So I was really motivated because I had the fantasy that once I would leave for college, everything would be great and I soon learned that wow, you know, I really didn’t have the skills. So I started working on myself and somewhere down the road I realized I was codependent and that was a huge turning point because I didn’t really learn how to make friends the normal way growing up, it was very much around people-pleasing and trying to get people’s approval. And you know, I find that that really gave me a passion for doing it in my work because you know, when you get some relief yourself, you realize, wow, you know what life doesn’t have to be so difficult. Relationships don’t have to be, you know so painful. So it kind of led me to choose becoming a therapist because I loved the process of growth and change and, and just, you know, becoming aware of what’s working, what isn’t and how to make baby steps along the way.

Kaitlin Harkess: That’s a really beautiful catchphrase there. Relationships don’t have to be so painful. And you highlighted the codependency was something you’ve experienced. What? What is codependency Michelle? Like, I guess from where you sit, now, both having obviously works through the experience and being a therapist, what what we kind of expect to sort of see and experience?

Michelle Farris: So I would say there’s a ton of definitions out there and a ton of books. But my definition basically is codependency is a relationship pattern where you’re sacrificing yourself for the sake of someone else. So you’re giving too much, you’re helping a little too much. You might be rescuing somebody and preventing them from having their consequences. So it’s not a balanced healthy relationship, it’s more based in needy, feeling needy, and dependent on that other person for your own self-worth versus being able to do that for yourself. And these are really common patterns that end up starting in if there is addiction, that’s kind of how most people understand codependency. It’s due to addiction. But it’s also, if you had a parent that was mentally ill, if you had a parent that was a rager because what happens is, if the adults can’t handle their own issues then it affects their parenting, right? And they can’t give the child what the child really needs. So in turn the child learns, I can’t have any needs that adults are busy, the adults are distracted, the adults are, you know, busy with their own issues. So they actually learn different ways to matter. So they learn to be a helper, they learn to be a straight A student, they learn what they do becomes how to get valued versus who they are, which is, you know, as adults really a painful way to go.

Kaitlin Harkess: It’s interesting that you highlighted that it’s this real, like, sense of dependence, but it’s dependence that is almost masked as giving and contributing and helping.

Michelle Farris: Right, because that’s how they find their value because, if well, when I was doing that if I could give enough, then I could think that I would get the love back versus being who I was and being able to say yes or no to something and then not really being worried about how the other person’s going to respond. Whereas when I was really knee-deep in the codependency, I was chasing people to like me because I didn’t know that it was really okay to be more discerning in relationships and have them be more equitable versus me doing all the heavy lifting and them doing most of the taking because that’s really key in a codependent relationship. It’s very lopsided.

Kaitlin Harkess: Yeah. Okay. So that there’s someone doing this taking and I’d like to come back to the parents element. But first, would you mind just like talking us through? You were kind of describing there like how it plays out in relationships and that lopsidedness and how, you know, that will then impact on our self-care and well-being.

Michelle Farris: So the codependent typically gets in relationship with someone, like an alcoholic, or someone who, because the alcoholic is so obsessed with their addiction, right? That they’re not emotionally available and what the codependent person realizes or comes from is they come from a family where typically the parents aren’t emotionally available because they’re busy with their own problems. Lack of skill, lack of awareness, emotionally for emotional health. So they learn to pick people that are emotionally unavailable, just like when they were growing up, so that could be the alcoholic. That could be the person who’s narcissistic and, you know, narcissism can be traits, or it can be the full-blown personality disorder, right? It can be anything in between but it’s basically the person who doesn’t tolerate somebody else’s needs, can only really tolerate their own. Or this could be the person they get in a relationship with that has lots of problems, so the codependent feels like, oh, I know what to do. I know how to help them. So they get entrenched with helping because that’s their, you know, the codependent high, nobody talks about. But that’s the, if I can help you and I feel really valued like the hero like I just rescued somebody, there’s alot of power in that and there’s a high emotionally that co-dependents feel when they rescue somebody that isn’t often talked about. So that’s a really important dynamic, so that kind of explains the lopsidedness. Does that make sense?

Kaitlin Harkess: It does make sense and that’s interesting because I haven’t heard of the codependent high, but it does highlight that reinforcement and why we would go back and do something again and again, because there is something that is coming from it. It just seems that perhaps what’s being taken away that experience of the high might be shortly lived than the energy invested and this underlying sense of unworthiness for self. Am I interpreting that right?

Michelle Farris: Yeah. Or they’ll like, if I give something and then the other person doesn’t really do cartwheels, recognizing it. I’m going to feel frustrated. Like I did all that work and I was hoping for a really big, thank you or I was really hoping for a gift or I was hoping for them to do the exact same thing back to me. And if I don’t get that right, being the codependent, then I may go into resentment and hurt and feeling betrayed because I didn’t get what I wanted. But the problem is, is that the codependent can’t really directly ask for it. They just assume that the other person should know what they need.

Kaitlin Harkess: Tell me about that directly asking for it.

Michelle Farris: Well, that’s scarier for a codependent because most codependent people are people pleasers. So they’re going to avoid conflict because growing up conflict was probably not something they learned. It was probably something scary so that really didn’t happen. So the people-pleasing starts and then, you know, they don’t want to be direct because if they can directly ask for what they need, you know, that’s a really important step for a codependent person but usually they have a lot of guilt because they are not used to being able to advocate and say, hey this is what I need, this is what’s going to work for me. They’re used to what’s going to work for the other person so that I can please them and then hopefully that will make the relationship work versus being able to tune in to what they need.

Kaitlin Harkess: If we’re not listening to what our need, our needs are. So for codependent, I imagine that that leaves one feeling pretty depleted and exhausted. So how does that affect self-care and well-being in these senses?

Michelle Farris: Well, they’re not really good at self-care. They’re not even really thinking about it because these are also the people that tend to volunteer first, right? So, they’re huge givers in the community, they’re known for their helping tendencies. So, you know, again, codependency isn’t all bad, it’s when you give to the point where it hurts you that’s when it needs to stop. And that’s where the self-care comes in is they don’t get taught that, hey, it’s okay to tune into yourself and go for a walk or say no to a project because you don’t have the time or say, no, I want to go to Chinese food, not Italian. They don’t learn that, they learn, no, you know what? I’m going? As long as I do what the other person wants then I’m going to stay safe. So the self-care really becomes the first step in recovery but it can be scary because they might have a lot of negative assumptions about what that looks like.

Kaitlin Harkess: Okay, so someone’s listening to this right now and they’re kind of going, okay. There’s like a few like flags, some of these things sound familiar, I do feel uncomfortable maybe asking someone to do something, you know, directly and I feel like I’m giving more in my relationships. Are there any other sort of ways of telling if someone might be experiencing codependency, or if their relationship is codependent?

Michelle Farris: So the lopsidedness is big. Are you doing most of the giving? Are boundaries difficult? Because often times they will not know what they need enough to even ask for it or say a lot of times codependent people because of that need for approval is so strong. They’ll end up in relationships with people who don’t share their same values. And they might feel kind of embarrassed by that, but you know, if you’re codependent the first thing I want to say is you’re not alone. There are millions of us and it’s it’s a very common thing because it is a reaction to trauma and to growing up in dysfunctional homes. So these patterns are very common, but it also looks different for different people. So, for instance, some codependents might have control issues. We all know the person that has control issues, right? Because they need to control every little thing. Others don’t. Others are so people-pleasing that the last thing they’re going to do is to want to control the environment because they’re not going to put themselves out there enough to do that. So that’s why, you know, there’s so many traits but it does look different depending on who it is.

Kaitlin Harkess: And would it look different if someone has this history and perhaps you know you kind of respecting that even in your friendships growing up you didn’t learn the techniques or sort of patterns that that others might have. Would it looked different in different relationships that were in, you know, like depending on the other person and depending on whether something might be more platonic or more romantic, how does that sort of play out?

Michelle Farris: So you can be codependent in any relationship, whether it’s a romantic partner, which most people think of first. You can be, codependent with your child, you can be codependent with your best friend, you can be codependent with your parent or your adult child. Because it’s an unhealthy dependency, so, that is the core of it. So some people might do it with their kids where they feel like their kids’ success is their success. And there’s not a clear boundary between who the child is, and who the child is becoming and who they are. So that gets really blurred. Now, of course, as a parent, we all want our kids to do well, right? But it’s if my son, I have a son, let’s say if he tanks at something, does that mean I’m a bad mom? No, not at all. But if I were codependent, then I would be thinking that I’d be thinking oh my gosh, or this is a stain against who I am, and I go into shame versus, no, that’s somebody else’s behavior is somebody else’s behavior and it’s their responsibility.

Kaitlin Harkess: And that’s interesting that you mentioned earlier, that codependency really develops in childhood based on parents’ experiences and I think, at one point, you did sort of highlight skill or you know capacity, something to that extent. And what you just sort of flagged there that, as a parent, if your son’s failure was taken as a stain against you, I imagine also his successes if there was this mindset, would then be something that you would take on board and that, that might put expectation on your son sort of passing this patterning down, is that kind of how it works? Could we talk about childhood and development?

Michelle Farris: Yeah, absolutely these so the codependent people who are the straight A students, the president of a club, they look perfect on the outside. That’s because that’s the way they’re learning, how to matter. But the problem is they can’t make a mistake. They can’t be imperfect. So it’s really really hard. So the goal of codependency recovery is balance. You know, how can I accept myself warts and all? You know, but in childhood, yeah, it’s really hard because if your parent doesn’t have the skills to teach you that and to give you the time and energy you deserve to grow up healthy and let’s face it, I don’t think anyone as a parent, when you become a parent, you don’t realize how much work children are until you become a parent. And, you know, I’m 53 so when I was growing up, you know, there wasn’t any help for parents. There weren’t a lot of parenting books. There was Dr Spock. There was one parenting book and it was let your kid cry it out.

Kaitlin Harkess: Yeah. Which is awful.

Michelle Farris: Oh, it is so, you know, in a lot of ways, some of our parents were innocent because they really didn’t have the wealth of knowledge. Now, we can read a book, we can go to therapy, we can, you know, there’s so much more help out there. But you know, when you don’t have the tools, that alone can create codependency because you might just teach what was done to you, and if you grow up in a family, where your needs and wants aren’t respected and honored, then you may in turn do that to your own kids.

Kaitlin Harkess: It’s interesting how you highlighted, you know, this lens of compassion that you were kind of, I guess in interpreting your own childhood and experience kind of taking into consideration, what was going on for your parents and understanding what kind of lead to this experience.

Michelle Farris: Well, yeah, because most of us, even though, I think part of recovery is having a healthy amount of anger and frustration about our childhood and working through that. Eventually you want to get to the point where you can look at your parents and go, you know, they probably had demons of their own that set up those characteristics and those dysfunctional behaviors that caused us a lot of pain because, you know, I don’t, unless you’re sociopathic, you know, I don’t believe parents intentionally want to hurt their children. You know, there, there is a small number of that but in large, I think it’s really they don’t know what to do and they don’t know how to live in a way that is healthy so of course, they’re going to take it out on their kids, not handle their stress, maybe not take care of themselves. So they send the example that self-care is not important.

Kaitlin Harkess: That’s an interesting point, isn’t it? That we can kind of hold that, anger, that frustration but also that understanding and that, you know, all of these experiences can exist in as you said are part of this recovery journey.

Michelle Farris: Yeah because if you get stuck in the this is what was done to me, right? Even though that’s a normal part and phase of recovery and and any personal growth work is looking at our childhood and being upset, but we can’t stay there forever. There has to be a turning point eventually to come to some kind of acceptance even though we’re not going to ever condone abusive behavior. That’s definitely not what I mean but to come to terms and accept that, okay, that was my childhood and at this point I need to take the reins, be the adult I want to be and and get better.

Kaitlin Harkess: Tell me about getting better. What does recovery and kind of moving forward look like?

Michelle Farris: So I think relationship recovery starts with self-care. You have to have a foundation of being able to take care of yourself, know what you need and want, manage your emotions because when you have that set of skills, it’s going to be a lot easier to move into the core relationship skills like setting boundaries, communicating effectively, handling conflict, being able to deal with hurt and triggers and resentments because they’re going to come up, right? We’re all going to have them on occasion and being able to make amends. So if you can do those two things, what’s going to happen is you’re going to be able to trust yourself and you’re going to now be able to say okay you know what based on my skills and that continued self-care, you’re going to be able to trust not only yourself and your own perceptions but you’re also going to be able to change who you get into relationship with because unacceptable behavior will no longer be acceptable and you will get to the point where you’ll go hmm, I may not necessarily leave that person but I may not have them in my inner circle anymore. They may just be in the periphery. They may be a friend I contact every so often, but they’re not going to be someone I’m going to trust my heart with if they’re not kind people.

Kaitlin Harkess: That’s a really interesting point isn’t it? that that it’s not just about changing, you know, you as an individual and then the rest of the world, just sort of dynamic shift. In actuality changing you does then mean that the rest of the world and these social connections and relationships may shift in such a way that it’s not the same people that you draw closer.

Michelle Farris: Yeah because I think one of the things people think and I know I did was I literally thought when I started my recovery, if I could only pick healthier people, I would be fine because I didn’t see myself as the problem, and a lot of codependents don’t, because we’re givers, we’re really supportive, loving people. So sometimes we’re the last ones to recognize that we are codependent. Everybody else in our life knows but we don’t know and that that can also be, you know, part of the, you know, myth is, you know what, we have to get to the point where even though we’re generous kind people, we have to see our part in things and be willing to do that.

Kaitlin Harkess: That’s super interesting because I imagine the people that one might have surrounded themselves with, you know, as a person experiencing codependent actually benefit a lot from that relationship and that giving. So, you know, I wonder what that was like for you. Like, do people give you feedback and say look like, I think you’re burning yourself out, you’re giving too much or did you maybe not get the feedback or miss the feedback because you just weren’t seeing it. What was the process like of noticing?

Michelle Farris: I don’t think people noticed that I was doing that although I got kudos for doing that which is why it was hard to give up. I think I was just burnt out and I was realizing that and I was doing my own work in a lot of different areas. So it became clear to me that I am giving way too much of myself in relationship versus feeling like I had my own strong sense of self and that’s what alerted me. Like, holy cow. I am literally giving myself away to somebody else for their validation, instead of being able to give it to myself. So you’re doing your own work and you were noticing this pattern of being burnt out, and the sense that you didn’t have this strong sense of self, that you were giving that away. What else is involved in recovery and noticing like where, where do people start when they’re going? Okay, this is a journey that I want to go down. You mentioned the self-care, the skills will be useful. I’m gathering at that’s done, in your case, it was therapeutically, I’m getting the picture. Anything else, like?

Michelle Farris: Yeah, so there’s one other thing and this is the one that most people will likely seek therapy for is the family of origin issues. And what’s hard is that when we’re in codependency recovery, a lot of those three things are happening simultaneously. You’re trying to take care of yourself better, you’re in relationship with other people and you’re trying to assess them and childhood issues are coming up. So that’s why, you know, codependent recovery is not meant to do in isolation. You cannot just read a book, you know, attending Al-Anon or CoDa, would be really what I recommend first.

Kaitlin Harkess: Sorry, what are other Al-Anon and and CoDa?

Michelle Farris: Yes. So Al-Anon is the sister program to Alcoholics Anonymous. It’s about 60 years old, it was started by Lois, the the wife of Bill W who started AA, and it’s for anyone who is friends or family members of alcoholics and addicts. Now, if you don’t have an alcoholic in your life or an addict, but you relate to being codependent go anyway, you’re not going to be kicked out. I guarantee it. Because there’s other things, like I said in the beginning that create codependency. CoDa is Codependents Anonymous. That program is probably maybe 30 years old, maybe 40 it’s it is probably pretty established but is it’s not as readily available as Al-Anon. And right now they’re all on Zoom, they provide free sponsors. So you can get a mentor to walk you through the program because therapy is great. I obviously believe in it since I do it myself professionally and personally but it’s an hour a week. People are going to need more support than an hour a week. They’re going to need people to go to for support, to reason things out with someone else, to talk about, you know, their lack of boundaries or you know, where they’re stuck points are so that’s why ultimately codependency recovery is a mixture between group support and individual support.

Kaitlin Harkess: Beautiful. And I guess there’s that normalization experience, naturally that happens in groups, which is huge because if we’re feeling alone and isolated,and perhaps the shame that comes with it. That doesn’t necessarily bring us that humanness of connection that I think, right? You know, the vulnerability that often comes up in groups, may facilitate.

Michelle Farris: Yeah well that’s a really important point you’re making because it really is about feeling less alone and feeling like, oh, my gosh, you hear somebody else’s story and it’s just like yours and you don’t feel crazy anymore. You feel like, oh my gosh, I’m not the only one struggling with this.

Kaitlin Harkess: Yeah, yes, so there’s a connectedness in this journey and this unfolding. So Michelle, you also have a workbook I believe. Can you talk us through what’s involved in that too?

Michelle Farris: I do, well, part of the reason during the pandemic, I had more time. So I thought I would create a workbook because even though I did a lot in my early recovery, there were things that I wanted help with that. I couldn’t find like self-care. How the heck do you set a boundary? What do I need and want? What are my relationship patterns? So I thought I’d create it. I would just create a workbook to walk people through those issues and then I have a little video attached to each module because I wanted that personal connection of, okay, I get you, you’re going to, I’m going to walk you through this. Because I think it’s really important to know what to do when you start recovery. Sometimes there’s so many different issues. You’re not really sure where to start. So the workbook gives you places to start like self-care and boundaries and you know, what do your relationships look like right now? What are those, you know, people-pleasing behaviors that are causing you pain, that you might want to look at.

Kaitlin Harkess: Where do we get the workbook? Because people are sitting here like, this is amazing. How do we get that?

Michelle Farris: So, that’s on my website, counselingrecovery.com

Kaitlin Harkess: Beautiful. How else can people connect with you, Michelle?

Michelle Farris: So I have a Facebook page that kind of acts more like a group because I haven’t, I haven’t done the group thing yet and that’s under Counseling Recovery. I have a YouTube under that, I have Instagram under that, I love Pinterest, so I’m also on Pinterest. So those are the places that I hang out.

Kaitlin Harkess: Beautiful. And listeners what I’ll do is I’ll put all of this in the show notes so that if you are driving or you’re kind of, I don’t know, going for a run if you listen to podcasts while running. Not gonna note it down now. Totally fine. It’ll all be in the show notes so that you can connect with Michelle and grab the book on codependence which will talk you through everything that Michelle has so kindly shared with us today. So, talking through self-care and some of these skills and I think what an amazing reflection Michelle to look back on your journey and to be able to share it with us both professionally and therapeutically, I think that’s a really incredible interface and skill set for those of us who are in this in this experience and are kind of having some of the flags going up saying, oh, actually, this is a bit of time for change. I am feeling a bit burnt out and things aren’t feeling, aren’t feeling balanced in my relationships and in my life right now.

Michelle Farris: Thank you so much. That was really lovely to chat with you.

Kaitlin Harkess: Absolute pleasure. Well, I wish you a wonderful day and listeners, connect with Michelle and we’ll follow the journey at Counseling Recovery from there.

Kaitlin Harkess: Well I hope that you found that conversation as actionable as it was educational. Michelle has an incredible way of capturing exactly what codependence is and I think the fact that she has some lived experience, really adds to that depth of knowledge. Of course if you know someone else who might benefit from this episode, please send them the link and if you’d like to connect more with Michelle, head to counselingrecovery.com or of course to the show notes at drkaitlin.com where you can get links to Michelle’s work as well as her social media. Alright. I will let you get back to your day and I will see you again in a fortnight or shall I say, you will hear me perhaps in your earbuds in a fortnight, wishing you and yours well, bye for now.

Outro: Thanks for joining us this week on the Wisdom for Wellbeing Podcast. Please visit drkaitlin.com to connect, find show notes, other episodes, and to subscribe. While you’re at it, if you find value in the show, we’d appreciate a rating or perhaps simply tell a friend about the show. Wisdom for Wellbeing is not a substitute for professional, individualized, mental health treatment. If you are in crisis, please contact 000, your local emergency number if you are outside of Australia or attend your local hospital ED.