Welcome to the sixteenth episode of Season Three of Wisdom for Wellbeing Podcast. On this episode I interview Dr Delia McCabe, PhD.

Delia discusses strategies, backed by evidence-based nutritional neuroscience, to support the little ones in our lives to eat delicious and nutritious foods.

Want to keep in touch? Head to @drkaitlin on Instagram or @wisdomforwellbeingpod on Facebook to connect.

What is covered in this episode:

>> When children are young, after breastfeeding, and you start giving them different tastes of different foods, there’s some research to suggest that children take 10 different or 10 introductions to the same food before they’ll actually try that food. But this also depends on temperament as well because some children might be a bit more hesitant, while other children are quick to try new foods.

>>Using a delicious sauce for vegetables can be used as a great funnelling device as children get socialised to eating them

>>Meal prep and involving children in food preparation is a great place for parents to start – involving children in the process makes them a lot more open to trying the food

>>Giving children their favourite meal before a birthday party so they spend the time playing instead of eating foods that might be not as healthy.

>>Emotions need to be separated from food because once minute is attached to our feelings – it becomes a problem (e.g. like rewarding a child with food when they’re upset) Eating is meant to satisfy hunger and give us fuel and energy.

Links Discussed

• Dr Delia’s previous episode: Feed Your Brain for A Lighter You
• www.lighterbrighteryou.life
• Lighter Brighter You Facebook Group
• @lighterbrighteryou on Instagram
• Dr Delia McCabe on LinkedIn
• Delia’s Book – Feed Your Brain and Feed Your Brain: The Cookbook

*Currently, you can get a special 2 for 1 offer on Delia’s books. Click here!*

You’ll find a copy of the Episode Transcript below.

Transcript

Delia McCab: So they obviously are the things attached to achievement and children being successful and happy. It’s not just the food, but food is the foundation because without the right food, the framework doesn’t exist, you know? At a cellular level, let’s say at a neuronal level, the neurons aren’t capable of developing the connections that they need to connect with other neurons to be able to allow the child to learn and grow and develop optimally and that’s what we want. We want the foundation to be there.

Introduction: You’re listening to the Wisdom for Wellbeing Podcast, the show that blends science and heart to bring you evidence-based tips and tricks for cultivating a healthy, wealthy, and meaningful life. Now, here’s your host therapist, Yogi, and fellow full life balancer, Dr Kaitlin Harkess.

Kaitlin Harkess: Hi there. Welcome back to Wisdom for Wellbeing. Quick question before we dive into the episode, are you getting regular emails from me? I send, you know, every couple of weeks, an email that offers tips, tricks, strategies often related to this podcast to the Yoga Nerds on my mailing list and I would love you to be one of them. It also means that the next month I can flag with you when I have a live workshop that you can join. Live in the sense of live online, virtual given given the times that we’re existing within. So if you would like to grab a little goody when you do join the Yoga Nerds, just head to drkaitlin.com or wisdomforwellbeingpodcast.com and just scroll to the bottom of the page where you can sign up to the Yoga Nerds list and you’ll do that by way of receiving a free guide book which will offer an opportunity for you to reflect on your values as well as give you a little bit of audio to go with your workbook, a values meditation hosted by yours truly. Anyways, have a look. Let me know what you think. I would love to be able to keep in touch with you. Hi there. Welcome back to Wisdom for Wellbeing. Now, we have definitely chatted about the importance of nutrition and getting nutrients into your system for your physical and emotional health, as well as your cognitive capacity, and we are following on from that train of thought today when we talk about the little people in our lives. How can you support your kids ,the small people you are around to eat well when they have this reputation of saying n o no, I do not like vegetables. Huh the challenges, right? Luckily we are going to be talking to Dr Delia McCabe around how we support our children to eat delicious and nutritious food. Dr Delia McCabe has been a guest on Wisdom for Wellbeing before so if you haven’t listened to it, scroll back and you’ll get some adults tips and tricks on how we really give our body the good stuff. But today we are talking children. So Delia actually shifted her research focus from Clinical Psychology to Nutritional Neuroscience upon discovering nutrition’s critical role in mental wellbeing. Her Research into female stress has been published in a number of peer-reviewed journals and she’s a regular expert in the media. She also has two books. One of them is a cookbook and a fantastic idea when you’re looking to pull more strategies about how you get yummy, delicious goods onto your little one’s plate. Using her background in Psychology combined with evidence-based nutritional neuroscience and neurological strategies, Delia supports behavior changes and stress resilience. So, if you want to optimize your brain health, she has a number of online courses, workshops, and tailored events that she does offer nationally and internationally. So, without further ado, I would like to introduce you to Dr Delia McCabe and yes, chocolate will come up in this conversation. So stay tuned. Chocolate and tacos, here we go.

Kaitlin Harkess: Hello Delia. Welcome back to Wisdom for Wellbeing Podcast, I am delighted to be here with you again today and this this is a special conversation because this is actually a conversation that takes place following our last interview. Because, you know, so many parents, people who are involved with little people in their lives are interested in how we support them to maintain emotional, physical wellbeing, by the foods that are on their plates and in their tummies. So thank you for coming back on to have this conversation.

Delia McCab: It’s an absolute pleasure. I really love this conversation because it’s an important one, and it’s one that I really dive into a lot when my kids were young, so thank you for the opportunity.

Kaitlin Harkess: And, you know, having a young family myself. I’m so excited personally to learn from your wisdom and lots of listeners have sent in their questions. So listeners, if you might have missed out on the opportunity or maybe you’re listening to these episodes a little bit later. No, no worries. Because I know that these questions are quite common and Delia, you have also offered that, you know, where there’s an opportunity, you can share some of the common concerns that come up with parents as well. So listeners, you are in for a treat. And I guess, you know, that was a bit of a pun but Delia, would you mind sharing for listeners who maybe haven’t had the chance to listen to your first interview yet a little bit about who you are and the amazing work that you are doing as part of Lighter Brighter You.

Delia McCab: Thank you Kaitlin. Yes, I’ll do that with pleasure. I was going to be a talking therapist, you know, a clinical psychologist, like you are, when I had the misfortune or fortune to actually work with children, who are really underachieving at school and their parents were beside themselves. Their teachers were beside themselves. You’ve always heard these stories about kids that are really smart, but don’t do well at school. And I had these children in this group that I was working with. I was looking at the psychological variables that underpin the underachievement. And I had a control group that were doing really well at school and didn’t need any intervention. So these were my two groups, my experimental and my control group. And I had a little bit of extra space on one of the questionnaires that I developed for them. And I said to them, what’s your favorite food? And it was really just a space filler. It was not something that I thought was going to give me any insights but as you and I have spoken about this before, I was suddenly faced with this huge epiphany because every single one of the children in the control group didn’t love junk food, but every single one of the children in the experimental group, that’s the group that were doing poorly, but were capable of doing well, loved junk food and it was this huge huge, you know, dichotomous, clear distinction, so I thought, oh goodness me. This is really interesting and as fate would have it. I was pregnant with my first child at the time. And I thought, look, I’ll take a little bit of a break. I got my masters and so on I’ll investigate this, you know, what does it actually mean? And so I then discovered that there was this field called nutritional neuroscience. This is 25 years ago, so I’m dating myself, but it’s interesting because thta field was a very in its infancy at that point in time. And today we’ve got lots of robust evidence, weighty evidence that supports the fact that what we eat impacts brain function directly. So I then started finding out all of these things. You know, it was pre-google day. So I was traipsing off to the library and getting Journal articles with one sentence here and a small paragraph there. And I, then started, implementing those things that I were discovering into our family and the way we ate and slowly, but surely I had discovered that there was a way to feed your children so that they could optimize their intellectual potential and they could actually function well and be physically healthy and be happy and have stable moods and actually like good food. So it was really a very fortuitous discovery. That really served me and my family in a big long reaching way. So that’s basically my background, Kaitlin.

Kaitlin Harkess: That’s such such like a passion, isn’t it? You know, the fact that you had this discovery that really unfolded unbeknownst to you, you weren’t looking for this association with performance, academic performance and, you know, love of and presumably a lot of digestion of different different foods. Whether it was the health foods or the junk foods and that you actually saw, you know, transformation in your family, by starting to apply some of this nutritional neuroscience by starting to really link what was going on in the plates to what was going on in performance and behavior.

Delia McCab: Absolutely. And I think it’s very empowering to discover information and then to start applying it and then you start seeing, wow. These are the benefits. So, they obviously are the things attached to achievement and children being successful and happy. It’s not just the food, but food is the foundation because without the right food, the framework doesn’t exist, you know, at a cellular level let’s say, at a neuronal level, the neurons aren’t capable of developing the connections that they need to connect with other neurons, to be able to allow the child to learn and grow and develop optimally. And that’s what we want. We want the foundation to be there. So the food is is very much part of a an approach that says, well, let’s get first things first. Let’s get, you know, down to down to first principle. So I was very fortunate to have discovered that then.

Kaitlin Harkess: I like that you said first principles, because this is actually something that’s come up in a few different areas, this idea that you know we need to start with the basics, the building blocks and everything else can come from there, you know? So with, with that. What do we feed kids? Like in terms of kind of starting the conversation today? What are the things that are really important to keep in mind knowing there’s a wealth of information? What would be sort of the spark notes for those of us who might be less familiar with this?

Delia McCab: I think the most important thing to keep in mind is that children kind of direct us with what they like to eat, you know? So when they’re young and you starting out after breastfeeding and you giving them different tastes of different foods, there’s some research to suggest that children take 10 different or 10 introductions to the same food before they’ll actually try that food. Now, this is, of course related to temperament as well, because some children will just happily put something in their mouths and taste it and others will go. Oh no, I don’t like the look of that. So, you know that’s that’s something to keep in mind. And the other thing to keep in mind is that when children are young, very much, what comes into play is the texture of the food. So, they know or nature has imbued us with the instinctual understanding that, if something is very squishy, it could be off. So for example, some children once they taste it tomato, they’ll go, ah, they can’t stand a raw tomato because it’s got that squishy, kind of not crisp taste or texture, so texture and flavor are very much intermingled in the young child’s cognitive repertoire, can I put it that way for what they want to try, and what they don’t want to. So sometimes it’s easier for young children, obviously, when they get to the age when they can chew is to have crisp and and things that can be bitten clearly that don’t have that squishy mushy kind of texture because that affects children. And also there’s an age thing related to that. Parents may notice their children that don’t like squishy foods are also children that get very bothered by labels on their clothes and labels in their shoes or on their socks. These are children that are very sensitive from a sensory perspective and they grow out of this. But parents, just need to be aware of that fact, that in the beginning, this could be one of the reasons that children are rejecting certain foods. So that’s just an important point to keep in mind. The other thing that I’ve noticed, which is very interesting and I haven’t done any research into this, but I’ve noticed that when parents stopped breastfeeding and then they start, you know, mothers, and then they start feeding children, different kinds of food. They very fussy about the food at that point in time. So they look for organic and they don’t want any additives or any sugars. They are very fussy. But then something happens over the next couple of years and they get to the point where it all seems to be too hard and I understand that because I’ve seen mother’s go from making all the organic, homemade veggie purees to basically just telling the kids, you know, well you can eat whatever you want to. And I know why that happens because women are tired. Women carry huge loads, you know, in taking care of children and the home and working outside the home or inside the home on things outside the home. So these are all different things and this is the time issue and so that becomes a challenge. So I think there are a few issues that we could unpack about that if we have, if we have time later but those are important things to keep in mind because brain development and texture and taste are very much intermingled.

Kaitlin Harkess: That’s a really interesting point around it being, you know, evolutionary in a sense. You know, that this texture thing might have evolved as a way of keeping us safe. But at some point I guess there’s this learning that this is a safe food. This is a good food and, and is that simply because it’s offered, you know, 10 plus times or is it also, I imagine that we see parents or other people kind of modeling behavior too?

Delia McCab: 100%. I always tell people that children see much better than a hear, so if they see parents eating food that they are a little bit hesitant about, then they naturally feel like well it’s actually safe because those are the mirror neurons in the brain, picking up, you know, that children follow and see, okay, that’s safe so I’ll do that, it looks good. But yes, it could be ten, eleven, twelve times that the child is exposed to that food. So it’s important for parents not to get irritable and say oh well and not not present that food again. I mean, even with the broccoli, you know, when you, when you steam broccoli and you don’t steam it for too long, it can still be a little bit crisp and bright green. But some children may prefer broccoli when it’s completely raw where they can gnaw on it and taste it, I’ve seen some children take raw broccoli, put it into a dip, a nice, good oily, healthy dip, and then actually suck the dip off the broccoli. And so they’re getting used to that funny kind of, you know, woody, grassy kind of texture in their mouth while they’re doing that and every now and again, they’ll bite a piece off. So it’s just a matter of being patient while you allow your child to try all these different things and if they put them aside, don’t take it personally. It’s just the process.

Kaitlin Harkess: You know, it’s interesting that you mention, like the good, oily dip as well, because maybe this is an important topic too is that it’s not just having like all these raw vegetables that you’re sort of putting in front of kids, you kind of almost mention this this sauce like that these vegetables could be a bit of a funneling device in the beginning, as one gets used to them or socialized to them.

Delia McCab: Absolutely, I think for me, when I realized that flavor molecules disperse a lot more efficiently in fat versus water, I then realized that I could use that as a way to get children to play with their food because children love activities, don’t they? So they can dip carrot sticks and dip things into all these sauces and then see what they prefer. And then you, as a parent can see, what is suitable, you know what the children enjoy, and then make more of that. And then try different ones, because then they get just more of the flavor, and of course, fats and oils are extremely important for optimal brain development. So that leads us into a discussion, which we had last time, you know, when we when we chatted, and that’s really important. So, you can really get a few things across the line with your kids here, you can get them to play with their food, which no one’s going to object you,accept the person who has to clean up. You get them to try different textures by using, as you said, the the sauces as like a funneling device. You get them to have a flavor experience because of the fats and oils in this in the sauce and you get them to just learn that they can try different things because it’s fine to try different things. If we become very strict and pedantic about the kind of food that they’re eating, then that also, you know, imbues the eating experience with a hollow of emotion that we don’t want to do.

Kaitlin Harkess: That’s an interesting point that it needs to be something that is positive, enjoyable, that it’s not forced or constrained, that that emotional element can can certainly impact, because I suppose kids have very little control in things in life, don’t they? So, if they say no to a certain a certain food or something, that is something that they have some power over and some of that might be directed by taste buds experiences. But some of that might actually be the emotional energy surrounding it, perhaps?

Delia McCab: I couldn’t agree more because what happens is that traditionally during the terrible twos and, you know, going into the third year, children learn that they can say no. And it’s a perfect place to do that at the dinner table when they realize that, if they say no, Mom or Dad gets upset. So then it’s just a case of just saying, well, you know, you don’t want to have that you would like this instead. Is it trickier though? Because let me just say before I talk about the trick. The other thing is, when you tell your child, if they don’t eat the broccoli, they can’t have dessert. They learn that the broccoli’s bad, and they got to get through the bad thing first before they get to the desert, which is also not what you want to do. But as far as the trip goes, in terms of offering something else for the child, it’s important to keep in mind that a child that isn’t hungry, will be a lot more fussy than a child that is hungry because children are naturally primed to eat when they’re hungry. So if your child isn’t hungry, it may be because they’re having too many snacks between meals or it could actually be a zinc deficiency. Now, this is something that a lot of parents aren’t aware of, because zinc is very, very important for the 10,000 taste buds that we have to function optimally and when taste buds on functioning optimally, the child will naturally gravitate to very highly flavoured and very sweet foods because that’s the only thing that gives them a feeling of pleasure, which will then release dopamine. If the food is kind of like bland and boring, they won’t get that feeling of pleasure because they don’t have enough zinc to allow their taste buds to function optimally so I always suggest to parents if they’re having a child with really really fussy very very picky, isn’t hungry. Maybe you know kind of on the slim side which isn’t a problem but if the child isn’t eating optimally then that is a challenge always have their zinc status checked because there’s a lot of research to support the fact that zinc is important for appetite regulation. A feeling of satiation, the desire to eat and even body image. So that’s something to keep in mind.

Kaitlin Harkess: That’s incredible. Is zinc something that would be supplemented? Or is that something we get from certain foods? How does that work?

Delia McCab: If the child is severely deficient, then they would need to be supplemented with zinc, and there’s some formulas that you get, which is just on a teaspoon and the child can just have half a teaspoon to get that zinc. Zinc is found a lot in animal products. So if this is specifically relevant for children that are being brought up maybe as vegans or vegetarians, which can be a challenge if zinc, iron, and B12 on to being supplemented as well.

Kaitlin Harkess: I so I am a vegan my daughter, my family is vegan. So that’s an interesting point too. You know, we’re aware of the B12. But zinc, iron just being mindful of keeping tabs on those. If that’s not something that, you know, maybe listeners have in their diet too.

Delia McCab: Absolutely. And also for children, they can’t eat even if you are eating meat, they can’t eat meat and this is chopped up very finely and get the benefit of it, which may be a supplement, may be able to help with. So, there’s just, these are just things to keep on our radar as parents because we want optimal brain and body development for our children. And now we know so much that we can actually use in a plant.

Kaitlin Harkess: That’s fantastic. And that’s, there’s science behind this. There’s, you know, monitoring of different things that might be influencing taste, you know, association with textures. Parents are busy. Where do they start? How do they get healthy creative meals on the table when they are you know, and speaking from, you know, your own experience, my experience when we are so time time poor or, you know, have different investments of time and various various things, where do we start?

Delia McCab: I think a really important place to start is to make sure that you do some food prep. And for me, I do that on a Sunday. I go off to organic market, I come back home. I sort my fridge out so that I can easily open the fridge and make a meal in 30 minutes. So it’s an investment of probably about two and a half hours, but it pays off handsomely throughout the week because then I just pull whatever I need out of the fridge. As children get older. This is also really helpful because when the child opens the fridge. I had a fridge, I had a shelf in my fridge, which was basically the kid’s shelf, so whatever was on that shelf, they could take out and munch and snack on when their friends came and so on. And I always made sure that I had really nice and healthy little treats. So when they became teenagers, they often would want something sweet and yummy or something salty. And I will always make sure that I had fresh hummus there, you know, with organic corn crackers. Or I had some little chocolate treats which the girls seemed to gravitate towards. So making sure that you’ve got those things there for kids as they get oolder, but if they’re still young making sure you do meal prep. The other thing which I found really useful when my kids were young, I used to have two little yellow chairs that I had in the kitchen and they would pull those little yellow chairs to wherever I was at the counter and I give them enough on the chopping board. Obviously a blunt knife and so on when they got older and then they would chop or they would wash or trim the heads of the beans or whatever it was we did, they got involved in the experience because the minute a child is involved in an experience, they’re much more open to trying the food. So then they would maybe try a raw beet you know or try the lettuce. And in this way they become acustomized to the different foods that you’re busy preparing and it’s always accessible to them. They used to be next to me on the kitchen counter, one on either side and they’d be fiddling and playing and doing whatever and that’s a way to encourage children to be involved. I know parents will say, oh my goodness, that means it’s more wash up and more prep, you know, in terms of making sure that you’ve got stuff for kids but if the aim of of you’re trying to feed your children well is really important. If that’s one of the values that you have, then it definitely makes sense to just invest a little bit of time and effort into helping your children do that. And when you prep the food, you just take those containers out of the fridge and they’re there and you tell the children, okay, what do you want to mix together in the salad? Or how’re we going to do this? And so it just makes it easier, they’ve got much more control over the end product than if you just plunk the food down and say, that’s the meal.

Kaitlin Harkess: You know, it’s interesting because you know, you mentioned going to the markets and and the meal prep and after our last conversation I was so inspired with artichokes. I think I’ve commented on this a few times now but I was like, wow, this is like a superfood,= I had no idea about. But we actually saw some artichokes at the markets and we bought them. And I’ve never cooked artichokes from, you know, an artichoke from scratch before and we did it. I did it with my daughter, she had a little, she has a stool that she uses in the kitchen. So similar idea and I was amazed because when we got the artichokes out like they were, okay. They weren’t flavored or anything. And I think, because she’d been so involved in the process and, like, cutting off the roof of the artichoke house home. I don’t know what it’s called to to make it and the boiling all of the prep. She she loved or professed to love and eat the artichokes. And I think that was a direct result of that involvement.

Delia McCab: Absolutely because there she saw, she was part of the whole experience. And when she’d invested her time and her effort, and her emotion into this weird thing that her mother was doing. So, I mean, that’s fantastic. I’m so pleased to hear that. Something just to keep in mind, you don’t always have to cook them from scratch. You actually get great artichoke hearts in brine. (Great) I use those ones and I just squeeze the moisture out and I’ll throw them into hummus because they’re not have artichoke hummus and it’s a fantastic way to get artichokes into your diet in a way that you wouldn’t think about it, actually makes the hummus a whole lot creamier and just yummy. And I’m sure that your daughter would enjoy that and maybe you could show her, you know, this is what that artichoke looked like when we made it. This is what it looks like and what do you think? The chances are not hard that she’s going to love it because it’s kind of squishy, but when it’s in the hummus, perfect.

Kaitlin Harkess: And this is one of the recipes, just so listeners know where to go for, that is in Your Lighter Brighter You cookbook as well. So, you know, listeners when you’re kind of going, okay? Like how do I- it sounds so simple. But what do I actually do step by step? It’s all there. And and that’s a great tip. I’m going to be heading to Woolies. International listeners, it would be Safeway or wherever you go to the grocery shop to grab an easier avenue to artichokes because I don’t, I don’t know that I would be doing them from scratch all the time.

Delia McCab: And then you do have to make sure that you’ve got a flavorful sauce because that’s what most restaurants do. They serve artichokes, you know that have been cooked from scratch and they serve them with a really flavorful aioli because that’s when they taste good because otherwise they’re pretty bland and woody and a bit boring. But they got great health benefits as we’ve discussed.

Kaitlin Harkess: So there’s a combining of foods as well. So it sounds like your kind of highlighting that we can combine these foods, have kids involved in the process, you know maybe get a recipe out maybe in the case of a salad, let the kids choose what they put in but that it actually becomes this family connecting activity. So if we’re looking at like a learning experience, a developmental activity, even if it takes a little bit more time to have our kids involved, that there’s actually relationship-building and connection that’s happening here.

Delia McCab: 100% right. Because food is something that bonds us and when we eat together and we communicate while we’re eating together, there’s a lot of research to show that that’s really good for us and binds us, you know, from a psychological perspective, oxytocin is released. Serotonin is released. Dopamine is released when we enjoy the food. So there’s all sorts of things happening at, you know, at a level below just preparing and eating the food, which is great to know. I think also, it makes children curious so a child may see a photograph in a magazine or see something on Instagram and they may say, oh that looks great and I encourage parents to keep on encouraging their children to do that because that means that the child is curious and interested and then you can just tweak the recipe slightly to make it a little bit healthier and a little easier for them to help you with. But then, you’ve always got ideas because I know many women walk into the kitchen and they go, oh my goodness. What am I going to make for a meal? If you’ve got your children out there, busy scurrying around looking at foods they like when they come to help in the kitchen, or you can say, hey has anyone seen something that you like the idea of? And this is also where you can introduce different themes for menus during the holidays or during a weekend. You can say, okay, are we going to eat Spanish food this weekend or Italian food or Greek food or Indian food? And then the children can say, okay, this is what those foods – like that’s what these cultures have and then you can make that food and it just gives them a different flavor. They have a different, maybe some spices, they have a different experience of some herbs, different carbohydrates. Maybe some different protein. May be different legumes and all of that inspires them to be curious and to you know take just stretch their their flavor profile a little bit.

Kaitlin Harkess: The themes is brilliant, isn’t it really? Because when you mention like trying to come up with ideas that that can be hard that you have, your kids, kind of collating and collecting them for you as one way. But then having these themes kind of provides a bit of a spark, something different in terms of, just going back to the kitchen and doing the same thing again and again, this provides new opportunities for, I imagine, everyone to be a bit more creative.

Delia McCab: It does. One of the things that we did, we started making tortillas from scratch. So we found a tortilla press and my son was in charge of actually pressing them, which is a lovely boy activity and then we had them ready and then we cooked them. And then we’ve got a, I’ve got a recipe that are made for years and years and all the children in the neighborhood used to know about this recipe and it’s a recipe called coconut beans. Where we use coconut cream in a bean sauce and it’s really the simplest dish to make and it’s really delicious. And all the kids would know about this, they had come to the house, they’d smell it. They’d sit down, I’d give them the corn chips and they’d eat away. And then when we started making the tortillas, we then had to adjust the corn, the coconut beans, a little bit to make them a little bit dryer. And then we can put them into the, you know, the homemade tortillas with guacamole and it just made a whole event out of the meal that everyone could participate in. So, the themed meals are really lots of fun and you can get in as involved or as little involved as you want in terms of making them from scratch. Because you can also get great tortillas from a good health store. You take them and you can use them in and I’ve done that. Now, if I don’t have my son around anymore to make the tortillas.

Kaitlin Harkess: This is, I mean this is an important point, isn’t it? So listeners, who are like that, seems like a lot. It’s saying, well do what you can, you know, figure out when you have the time, when you have the space, you know, whether it’s a weekend, or a special night where you have bonding time with your kids. You can decide, you know, how how raw, you know you go, where you start from scratch on this and build up. What do we do about lunch boxes, you know, I don’t I don’t have kids who are in school but this is a question that was you know, really highlighted because some parents have to make not just, you know, dinner on the table but actually plan for food the next day, how do you go about that?

Delia McCab: Look, this is a challenging issue, especially with the fact that so many things are off off limits at school. And when I say so many things I’m talking about, possibly nuts and seeds, and they are powerhouses of energy. And if you could allow your children to take that, that would be great. But coconut butter is another option because coconut butter, coconut isn’t actually a nut, it’s actually a fruit. So it doesn’t have the same risks attached to to nuts and to peanuts. So that is one thing just to keep on our radar and coconut butter is absolutely delicious in any case. So, that’s one thing. The other thing is as children get older, you can get them involved in making their own lunch boxes and that’s where meal prep comes in again. So if they open the fridge and see all of these things that are available, my son on many, many days we take hummus and a packet of corn chips, and he would take some fruit and he’d take his water and that’s what he would have for his lunch. And then I knew when he came home, he could always have some other food. My daughter would take leftover salad, some chopped up carrot sticks, maybe half an avocado. She would choose her own food when she got older. When children are younger, I suggest that what parents do is have kind of like a mix and match. So, just give them a few. I think today, just one step back. Today, we’ve got these lovely lunch boxes, they’ve got all these different compartments. And when they first came out, I was so excited about that because children love to pick and choose between all these different things. So you can have a few berries in one and then you can have maybe some rice crackers, or rice cakes that you’ve broken up into another so that they can dip that into some kind of a sauce. And then you can have slivers of maybe apple that you just drizzled with a little bit of orange juice so that they don’t go dark and half a banana in another section. I think giving them a variety of all these different things makes it a lot easier because then they can choose between them and then you get to know what they like and what they don’t like either. And sometimes they’ll swap with children at school because children go what’s that bright red thing in there, you know, and then you go, that’s a, it’s a, you’ve made maybe a bounce, bounce ball kind of a treat and you put a little bit of beet root powder into it. So it’s red and they go ah, that looks interesting. So maybe they want to swap it with that so it just becomes a matter of being a little bit creative and just extending yourself but allowing your kids to help with that process. That’s perfect for different age groups, isn’t it? You know, that there’s different responsibilities that come with it.

Delia McCab: 100%. And I think what happened to us as well is when there was leftovers, our children would often take the leftovers to school, they would take that in a container with a fork and off they’d go. And I think because there had been intrained, some people would say indoctrinated, but they just knew that that was the best food for them and generally, they were hungry so because they hadn’t been, they’d had a good breakfast, but by the time lunch came, they were hungry. So then, you know, got stuck into their food. A lot of parents say, you know, there’s competition at the school, their peers, eat, are eating brightly colored, you know, crisps and and lollies and so on. Of course that’s going to happen. And this you know this brings me to the next point. If we can as much as possible find a way to find the healthiest of the processed foods and give our children that as an option. I’ve seen at some health stores, they do have some lollies that are made with vegetable coloring for example, and, you know, not not with refined cane sugar. So those are options that you can use for your child, but you also have to make peace with the fact that sometimes they’re just going to eat rubbish and you just have to make peace with that. It’s not as if that’s their whole diet. So parents shouldn’t feel guilty and you know get terribly upset about that, they will eat rubbish. The aim of the exercise though is to make sure they’re never very hungry when they’re going to be presented with rubbish. So for example, birthday parties. Oh my goodness. I gave my children their favorite food before they went to a birthday party because then they sat on their hand that meal and when they got to the birthday party, they would play. And I would have parents saying to me while your children, the only children that are playing, they weren’t hanging around the, you know, the table with all that food That was going to drive them crazy later on, they were the children playing. So I suggest that parents, just get a little sneaky from that perspective. Just give your kids their favorite meal, and when they get to the party, they’ll actually be enjoying the party a whole lot more than the other children, who are trying to fill themselves with all this non-food.

Kaitlin Harkess: This is a tip almost for us, isn’t it too right? Like if we’re heading out somewhere where we know, there’s not going to be great food for us to eat. Why not eat something at home? Spoil our appetite a little and then head out and and then we won’t be in that situation where we, you know, have our stomach cramping or we’re starving or whatever it is afterwards. That there’s, there’s ways around it that we’re almost training our kids of as well, that this is actually a social opportunity. It doesn’t have to be, you know, just hovering around the food table if that’s if that’s not necessary and not helpful.

Delia McCab: Yeah look, I’ve done that for years. If I know that I’m going to go somewhere where my food options are really limited, I make myself a powdered drink with, which is a green barley drink with some beetroot powder as well. I just stir it in and I drink it up and when I get there, I know that I’m not going to make a decision based on my blood glucose dipping. I’ll make a decision on what looks good and what looks tasty and healthy. But I’m not driven to make that decision because, you know, the brain makes very poor decisions when it’s hungry, so we can help it out and we can teach our kids to do the same.

Kaitlin Harkess: And what do we do when you know, we talked about birthday parties, kids heading out kind of making sure that they’re full. Is that the same technique with for instance, grandparents or extended family members or you know, those those people who provide the special treats. And I mean, I loved having ice cream at my grandparents’ growing up, some kind of, I’m one of them, but what do we as parents do to balance this, to manage this?

Delia McCab: Well, there’s two things to do. The first thing to do is to have a little box that you only have toys and little books and little treats and some of them new to give to your child when they’re going to go to a place like that because then they get involved with that new toy or whatever it is and they don’t get sucked into the food. And of course, you have to make sure that they aren’t hungry when they do that. So that’s the one way of doing that, because when children are really involved in something and they’re not hungry, they won’t gravitate to that kind of food. And so if you do that on an ongoing basis, the child will learn oh, when we go to Granny and Grandpa, we have some new thing to play with, which can be useful. The other useful thing to do is to take something with you that you know the other children and adults will love. So I always used to take something that I made called coconut fudge and it’s a raw fudge that you make with coconut and dates and it’s delicious and every adult and every child that’s ever tasted loves it. So, I would always take some of that with me and I’d make a separate one for the adults with a little bit of dark chocolate on it to make them feel like they were getting a special treat but you can do that for the kids as well. So that’s another way for the kids to not feel like they’re left out because they brought this and if they helped you make it and you know that other children are going to love it, then they invested in other people trying the things that they’ve made. So those are two tricks to just try and take the edge off them eating the other junky food. But then once again if they have some of it, they’re not going to be filling up on it. So there’s no guilt attached and no no emotion attached to it. Just let them have some of it, it’s an occasional thing, but those two tricks work pretty well. But that’s beautiful and I’m, it’s interesting because you know, when you’re mentioning the coconut cream burritos and things earlier tacos, you know, I noticed that there’s this pattern, isn’t there? That you’re offering something that’s really delicious to other people so other people are actually getting curious about what you’re eating and your kids are involved in this process. So there’s a steam link to it. It’s a really beautiful gift.

Delia McCab: Well it was quite funny because what happened is that the children in the neighborhood would gravitate to our house because I was always busy doing something, melting chocolate, trying this, doing that, and they gravitated there. And so they came with, with my children to the house and then they ended up telling their parents. So they were at least three mothers in the neighborhood that started making coconut beans as well, because their children loved them so much. So it kind of like became coconut beans at X’s house today and then all the children would go there. So it became kind of like a tradition that that was the one of the most favorite meals that the children would enjoy. And one of them either said to me, my child will eat broccoli in your house but not in mine. What are you doing? And then I gave her some tips. So, it does kind of like become a community event when your children are involved with other children, and the doors are always open in your home to come and try new foods.

Kaitlin Harkess: For sure. And I also like that you didn’t demonize the unhealthy food either, you know, that this is something that happens that it’s not, you know, that a parent is bad or a kid is bad, that they’re going to try it. But just if that isn’t the food that people are eating all of the time, then as we sort of talked to probably in the last episode as well like our gut bacteria is going to stay healthy, we’re going to be putting the good things into our system, for our cognitive function, for our energy, and it doesn’t add that emotional charge because I imagine if a food gets really, I don’t know whether demonized is necessarily the right word but where a parent gets fixated on no, no, no or it gets kind of put in this this sort of halo category that might become more appealing to a child rather than something else that that seemingly is may be forced upon them as an alternative.

Delia McCab: Quite correct. I think that emotional charge needs to be removed from the food because food shouldn’t be attached to our feelings. The minute food is attached to our feelings, we end up with a problem. So we need to be eating to satisfy our hunger and to give us fuel and energy to live our best lives. You know shouldn’t be the other way around, eating so that we can feel better about ourselves. And that’s, you know, when parents reward their child with food if they’ve hurt themselves or they’re crying and upset, the child learns, that this is, you know, a connection between these two things which shouldn’t be there. So it’s easy for the parent to separate the two. When the focus is on hunger and health and you know, the variety of the food. Instead of how do you feel? There’s a big distinction.

Kaitlin Harkess: That’s lovely. I love this idea that being creative the themes. The kids being involved, finding foods when they’re younger, you know, doing mix and matches and lunch boxes and when they’re older getting them involved so they can make their own food. And I I think how interesting that your son and daughter chose such different things to bring to school as well. It’s not that you were saying, this is what you have to bring. Each of their little bodies, personalities, you know, their situation called them to bring different things in their lunch boxes and that was okay.

Delia McCab: That was perfectly fine and I made sure that they had enough of a variety when that open the pantry door because this is something else that parents say to me, what do I do about everything that’s in the pantry that I know that isn’t healthy? And I’ll just give an example of what not to do. So I gave a talk one day to school actually was my children’s school. The principal had found out about my research and said please come and give a talk to the parents. So I went along, I was very happy to do that. And one of the mothers became so excited, Kaitlin, that she went home, and she threw everything out of the pantry. So when her children came back from school, they saw all their favorite treats lying on the floor at the garbage bin and they were like, what is going on here? And they were beside themselves and then, of course, when the husband came home, he got involved in this huge big argument and it wasn’t a good situation. So, she then found me and said, what have I done? And I said, oh my goodness. And so I learnt a lesson there. To give people some guidance. So nobody should go and do that who’s listening to this podcast. Just take one item. Look at it and go and find a healthier and healthier alternative. So, look at what the ingredients list are say, okay, I don’t want to have those things in there. Remember the longer the ingredient list, the more processed the food is. The higher up in the list, sugar and additives are, the more concentrated they are. So those are just the tools to keep in mind. Go and find a healthier replacement. So when that runs out and the kids go ah, what happened to that? Say, I found this, I don’t know if it’s nice, let’s try it. Don’t make a big deal out of it but keep on doing that over over a period of time, just be consistent and be patient and over a six-month period, a person’s pantry can look completely different. You don’t have those things they anymore. Now you have different things and now when the children go to the shop with you, like oh what about this, Mom? And what about that? Now they’re involved in this process. It’s not you making the decision simply based on their taste buds. This is what’s available. I think parents have this idea that they need. You know, they need to always cater to exactly what the child wants and I think the culture that we’ve grown up into wants to make children happy, but we have to keep in mind that we are the adults and we actually know better for our child. We wouldn’t let our child wander around on a six-lane highway in the same way, you know, you’re building your child’s best body and brain right now. So I think we need to take that responsibility and run with it in a positive way without making the child feel deprived and just be smart, you know, we adults we know how to do these things. Just that slow replacement is a very simple way to get the child just eating different foods that are less additive-filled, and definitely nourish them at a deeper level.

Kaitlin Harkess: That’s beautiful. So, the meal prep, healthier alternatives, getting lunch boxes, you know, I guess act, getting the kids actively involved in the lunch boxes as well as the meals. For parents who maybe don’t feel like they’ve got this base level of knowledge about how they might modify recipes or you know, make make the swap. So, you know doing the ingredient reading and what not. Where can they learn more from you? Because you’ve got a wealth of information on this, Delia.

Delia McCab: I think in my first book, I explain the science about how, how, why one should be feeding one’s brain. So if you’re interested in the science, then, you know, you can read that. But it’d be interesting just taking the science into your kitchen, my second book, which is Feed your Brain: The Cookbook takes all of that science and just applies it to recipes. And I made sure that the recipes weren’t long and complicated, and the ones that are, actually say, in, in the when I describe the recipe that it’ll take a little bit longer and maybe it’s more entertaining. Most of the other recipes are ready, quick, and simple to make. And you can just swap out things so at the bottom of every recipe, I’ve got variations. If you don’t have this, use this. And one of the ways to do this easily and to make sure that everyone gets to try it is don’t put everything together in the meal. So keep the peas separate to maybe the quinoa pilaf that I’ve got, and maybe keep the mushrooms separate and chop up the tomatoes and put them separately so that the child can kind of like have a mix and match and then we come back to the, you know, 10 times exposure. So those recipes of mine will all revised to be able to, for example, you don’t have to add coriander to the meal, my son hates coriander. So I always had to put coriander separately. So parents can easily take the recipes and adapt them in that way and just chop and change and try different things. If I call for quinoa, and the kids, maybe haven’t tried quinoa, cook a little bit of quinoa and use it on a separate occasion, but replace the quinoa with rice and so on and so forth. We do want to make this as simple as possible, and I didn’t have years to spend in the kitchen, you know, on a daily basis, excuse that, that weird terminology. But I think parents want things done really quickly. So that’s the way I devised my recipes.

Kaitlin Harkess: Beautifully flexible, how empowering for those of us who also may be going, I haven’t been shopping yet. So you know, what alternatives can we use here? And what, what can we do to make sure everyone’s involved and gets to put things together because I also imagine that adding the bits and pieces in has the involved but like the lunch boxes, where things are a little bit separate and they get to try bits and pieces. As a young person’s, like having a picnic, isn’t it? Bit of an adventure.

Delia McCab: It is and then you can also see what they like and what they don’t because maybe your children have never tried for example, blackberries, so you find blackberries at the store, you go. Oh wow, this could be fun and you put those in and then the child isn’t sure but the child brings them home and you eat them and they go, they’re actually safe.

Kaitlin Harkess: Yeah, so I guess grabbing your books is one way of kind of getting an idea of the science behind this. So we understand why this is important. And I think that’s probably a great foundation if listeners do have, do have the space for that because then you can kind of explain a little bit to your kids, which is hugely empowering, and also really validates their knowledge, as well, and their capacity to learn about why these things matter as well as the recipe book, where we can make flexible alternatives and and and learn to develop perhaps our own creativity. You also have your website Lighter Brighter You and you’re on Facebook. Give us, give us all the places, Delia where we can connect and where we can learn. Well, I’ve got my Instagram which is growing it’s really, I don’t have a huge following but it’s growing and I put good recipes on there. I put interesting bite-sized pieces of information and so mothers can follow that and also for their own health because my research has focused very much on female stress. So, I understand that. So I try keep that in mind with my posts. On my Facebook page, I also put a lot of interesting articles and I allude to my blog posts so that people can read more about the science about behind what I’m what I’m doing. And on LinkedIn, I just do a bit maybe more of a, from a business perspective but always to give value that people can take information away and run with it. So those are three ways that people can find me. If they go to our website and they opt-in, they’ll also get a 72-hour diet, kind of like a meal plan and they can try some of those recipes in that meal plan because those are the ones that we’ve used a lot and that are that are really helpful and useful in our house. So that’s just that’s another way. And then of course I send a newsletter out to everyone that’s opted-in with more information. For example, with a link to a podcast that I do, like ours and links to blog articles and so on. So if anybody wants to find me on social media they can.

Kaitlin Harkess: And that’s at Lighter Brighter You and I will, of course listeners put links to all of this in the show notes. And Delia, I just have to say thank you so much for making the space today because after our conversation last time, you know we talked a little bit about how important you know, this conversation is in terms of young people and then listeners have responded incredibly. They’ve been so interested. So I know that this is a really really important conversation because it does, as you say, it makes such a difference in terms of our kids potentials, futures, wellbeing and and the family culture that we’re all that, we’re all creating and embedded within. So thank you very much for making the space to chat with me today and for sharing with Wisdom for Wellbeing listeners.

Delia McCab: Thank you Kaitlin, it was an absolute delight. Thank you.

Kaitlin Harkess: Well I hope that you enjoyed that conversation and you are walking away with some strategies for how you can get the good stuff onto your little one’s plate. I know I certainly am. So of course, head on over to lighterbrighteryou.life to connect with Delia. She’s also got the wonderful books, Feed Your Brain and Feed Your Brain: The Cookbook so that you can keep, you know dishes, artichokes coming into play in the kitchen. You can, of course, head to the show notes at drkaitlin.com or wisdomforwellbeingpodcast.com where you can connect in with Delia’s Lighter Brighter You Facebook group, and we’ve got links to our socials there as well. And just a reminder, if you have not joined the Yoga Nerds yet, head to drkaitlin.com, scroll down towards the bottom and sign up to get your free guide book to support you in living a values-aligned life, as well as then signing up for the Yoga Nerds mailing list. So I can drop into your inbox once every couple weeks, offering you some strategies and there I can flag with you when a live online training that’s going to cultivate your break, yoga brain, pardon me is offered in oh like, about three weeks time, so next month. All right, wish you a wonderful week health and wellness for you and yours. Bye for now.

Outro: Thanks for joining us this week on the Wisdom for Wellbeing Podcast. Please visit drkaitlin.com to connect, find show notes, other episodes, and to subscribe. While you’re at it, if you find value in the show, we’d appreciate a rating or perhaps simply tell a friend about the show. Wisdom for Wellbeing is not a substitute for professional, individualized, mental health treatment. If you are in crisis, please contact 000, your local emergency number if you are outside of Australia, or attend your local hospital ED.